tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post5492091637044568491..comments2024-03-03T13:36:10.569-05:00Comments on The Dog Zombie: Domesticating foxes for fun and profitThe Dog Zombiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00242246213147009685noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-75490046809350034482016-08-01T02:28:48.635-04:002016-08-01T02:28:48.635-04:00Rats need other rats to live with, even if you pla...Rats need other rats to live with, even if you play with them a lot every day. Just like dogs and cats. Foxes are not really too social in the wild I don't think, but that doesn't mean they are totally solo either. Supposedly foxes and dogs raised together get along well, as they learn each other's language, but who knows just how well that really works? I think the real problem would be that the foxes likely don't behave like we think well behaved dogs should, and this could be an unpleasant surprise to someone expecting Labrador behavior and getting Wild Kingdom instead. Lots of exotic pets are abandoned by tragically misguided people who loved the idea of owning an animal, but are tired of the reality of having their house shredded and used as a litter box. Sallyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16283524293760095005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-68738723507373612532013-10-04T11:07:45.633-04:002013-10-04T11:07:45.633-04:00Interesting discussion. As a part of my study of ...Interesting discussion. As a part of my study of the domestication process in plants and animals during graduate school 20 years ago I read about the Russians' work on silver fox domestication with great fascination. Now that they have shown that a species can be domesticated in a very few number of generations simply by selecting for friendliness to humans, attempts will no doubt be made to do the same for other species, especially canids. I agree with the commenters who noted that this represents a human-induced increase in genetic diversity (though minor in contrast to the morphological and behavior changes) within a species, and could actually improve the prospects of survival for some species - especially large predators that need lots of space - as humans take over more and more of the world's space and resources with our burgeoning population. Imagine a domesticated version of the maned wolf, african wild dog, asian dhole, or channel islands fox, for example, desired and loved in human homes, carrying the genes of their wild ancestors into the future, and even ultimately "returning" to the wild should conditions for survival become available again. We have seen such a reversal of the domestication process in the case of the Australian Dingo, and feral dogs, pigs, and cats have no problems living on their own. Presumeably a similarly small number of generations would be required to "undomesticate" a species as "tameness" is selected out of the population. <br /><br />I agree also with the idea that humans show signs of self-domestication, such as retention of juvenile traits into adulthood (e.g. playfulness, large head, flattened face, smaller nose), naked body (a la Chinese crested, Mexican hairless, and now rat terrier dogs), dampened fight or flight instincts. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-11283771909416325602013-01-24T08:11:18.103-05:002013-01-24T08:11:18.103-05:00Personally I think the greatest problem with a pet...Personally I think the greatest problem with a pet fox is the animosity from other pets. Unless constant contact with people and domestication somehow changes the "scent" of the fox, it's likely to trigger predator/prey reflexes in other animals. Also, with wild, urban foxes around, what would happen to the reaction of cats (amongst other pets) that become used to the pet fox? Would it then lose its flight instinct and become a tasty treat for the wild fox?<br /><br />This is of course after the usual concerns of suitable pet ownership, etc...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13204322516036461460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-5432393340340203182013-01-06T16:33:59.906-05:002013-01-06T16:33:59.906-05:00I would suppose the vertict will ultimately depend...I would suppose the vertict will ultimately depend on feedback from private owners as to how well they behave as pets. If they all behave as badly as the above fox owner claims, the pet idea will probably fizzle out really fast.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-57090801104782636842013-01-06T16:24:30.701-05:002013-01-06T16:24:30.701-05:00This is definitely today's version of the guy ...This is definitely today's version of the guy who stood around the fire saying "that wolf is wild for a reason, stop trying to train it." And for everyone else who thinks its wrong, i guess scientific research is wrong. I guess the education of humanity should just take a back seat to your personal ethics and beliefs. The bottom line here is that they have domesticated an animal whether you approve or not. If someone who loves animals is looking for a pet and would give one a loving home, saving it from living in a lab all its life or worse, being euthenized for population control, then the lot of you people who oppose these animals as pets are just not animal lovers at all. Any animal lover would welcome a domesticated animal that was as beautiful and well behaved as these seem to be, and aside from the cost, I would be a silver fox's best friend without hesitation. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-612612946472803562013-01-05T20:01:42.491-05:002013-01-05T20:01:42.491-05:00It is absolutely unethical to domesticate a fox. ...It is absolutely unethical to domesticate a fox. We have enough problems with pet overpopulation as it is. Want a pet that looks like a fox? Find a dog that needs a home from a shelter. Save a life, don't make another species dependent on humans. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-28394447287447942762012-09-24T10:17:26.638-04:002012-09-24T10:17:26.638-04:00(Different Anonymous)
I don't see anything i...(Different Anonymous) <br /><br />I don't see anything inherently wrong with the idea of domesticating new species. With the way humanity is destroying the habitats of the world, it may be the only way to save some species from extinction at our hands. However, the idea of inbreeding animals from the start in order to make them more attractive as pets, or the idea of allowing those with no experience in handling semi-domesticated or wild animals can only end in disaster (mostly for the animals involved). Sadly, you just have to look at the way society reacts to certain breeds of dog who have been mishandled by humans to see proof of this. Until humans can prove themselves capabale of being mature and sensible about keeping animal companions, I think it's only right that the breeding of certain animals should be left to the experts, and that pets that are not to be part of the breeding stock should be neutered before being handed over to the public (regardless of the price tag). Otherwise you end up with irresponsible (and currently unregulated) breeders who compulsively breed for certain physical attributes regardless of the effects on the health and wellbeing of the animals involved. Unless the animals are being bred for a purpose which requires you to selectively breed the strongest and healthiest animals (as with most working breeds) you will end up with distorted "breed standards". These are decided by cretins who put appearances over health, selling overpriced animals to more cretins who don't do their research and want to own the animal because they think it looks "cute". If currently wild animals are to be domesticated, it should be done by experts with an eye on genetic diversity, NOT by people who just want to exploit animals for money. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-85302588490041660902012-07-26T08:40:08.506-04:002012-07-26T08:40:08.506-04:00Owning a domesticated fox has been a nightmare. We...Owning a domesticated fox has been a nightmare. We have been bitten several times. Never have an animal this high strung around a child. Bad idea to make a fox a pet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-34882816114305017482012-06-01T19:02:06.254-04:002012-06-01T19:02:06.254-04:00A very interesting fact about the domestication pr...A very interesting fact about the domestication process of the foxes is that scientists think that a lot of parallels can be drawn not only between them and other domesticated animals, but also to us humans. It is believed by some that humans are in the process of “self domestication” to some extend. This makes us able to live in close quarters with each other, be more sociable and tolerate stressful situations ( social demands, little private room, conforming to social rules, noise levels etc.) without resolving to aggressive behavior or fear responses. All these attributes have been seen in the tamed foxes. People/ animals who can tolerate these conditions are more successful in larger city environments which is required of pets. A very simplified example could be that overly aggressive people go to prison and have less kids. This comment might not be very relevant for an ethical discussion but the scientific research is rather interesting and valuable I think. A scientific reason why the foxes should become house hold pets is that it could help preserve this project by spreading out the genetical material of the foxes. Right now the foxes are mostly kept in one location which means that if a disease were to hit it could in the worst case scenario wipe out the population of tame foxes and the work of 50 years of selective breeding.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-72640241121250293342012-05-19T09:26:42.553-04:002012-05-19T09:26:42.553-04:00FYI : it wasn't commisioned by the fur trade, ...FYI : it wasn't commisioned by the fur trade, it is an investigation on the topic of domestication of species and the retention of juvenile traits initiated in soviet russiaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-3494567374362231862012-05-19T09:14:21.955-04:002012-05-19T09:14:21.955-04:00the question is not Why?, the real question you sh...the question is not Why?, the real question you should be asking is: Why not?<br />If we can do it, there is no reason not to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-66953085096401616362012-05-14T16:41:39.500-04:002012-05-14T16:41:39.500-04:00In direct reponse to The Dog Zombie: You shouldn&#...In direct reponse to The Dog Zombie: You shouldn't feel as though having foxes as pets is a bad thing by any stretch. What about the other animals which were domesticated over short to long periods of time? The only problem I can see for them, or really any other dometicated animal is having abusive/careless owners. Unfortunately there is little that can be done to prevent this issue. Anyways, if you do infact feel so strongly on not having foxes as pets, why not try to find an owner of a fox and ask them about whether or not they have any real problems with their fox and wether or not they believe the fox is happy in it's environment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-28036426656089975552012-04-23T04:57:56.900-04:002012-04-23T04:57:56.900-04:00Foxes are doing very well without any help, so wha...Foxes are doing very well without any help, so what's the point of tamiong them other then for your own private pleasure?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-1399980588577826462012-04-23T04:56:35.978-04:002012-04-23T04:56:35.978-04:00FYI : the origins of this study was comissioned by...FYI : the origins of this study was comissioned by the fur trade to see if they could make furfoxes more 'handable', and since every organisation (the furtrade aswell as the russian goverment) pulled the plug on this 'science project' for beeing unimportant they now sell their 'petfoxes' to fund their business. So technically yes, it is a science project, but of no actual benefit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-77355689970268074832012-04-23T04:52:40.423-04:002012-04-23T04:52:40.423-04:00Not true, foxes are social creatures, often live i...Not true, foxes are social creatures, often live in groups. They only hunt solitary since their prey items are of such a small size that they can't be shared with other members.<br />Besides; only 5% of the breed is selected as a petfox, what happens to the other 95%? I don't think they'll end up in a happy home, by buying a petfox from these people, you actually support this insanity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-75951448939651722192012-02-06T15:21:54.305-05:002012-02-06T15:21:54.305-05:00I was thinking something similar. Isn't this ...I was thinking something similar. Isn't this exactly how we domesticated dogs in teh first place?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-51291018716278812052012-01-23T07:02:19.565-05:002012-01-23T07:02:19.565-05:00My honest opinion? Taking a fox out of the wild to...My honest opinion? Taking a fox out of the wild to be your pet: this is wrong. You would be forcing them into living conditions they are not accustomed to and they will feel somewhat threatened. Buying a fox that was born domestic and raised by humans: this is not wrong. They are well adjusted to living with humans and sometimes even enjoy this association. It should also be taken into consideration that an animal born captive might not survive in the wild because of its dependence on humans since birth. As for care, many of the exotic breeders and current or previous fox owners have quite a bit of information.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-18610025982820555472012-01-16T00:30:59.198-05:002012-01-16T00:30:59.198-05:00I respect your opinion,but still think you're ...I respect your opinion,but still think you're mistaken in some of your points. I think it's good that people are looking to other species to make pets, it will only add diversity to our world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-62123061674876208452011-11-15T16:53:23.457-05:002011-11-15T16:53:23.457-05:00Anonymous: You may be interested in a post I wrote...Anonymous: You may be interested in a post I wrote about some of the things we have learned from our research on the silver foxes: <a href="http://dogzombie.blogspot.com/2011/07/repost-learning-from-domesticated-foxes.html" rel="nofollow">http://dogzombie.blogspot.com/2011/07/repost-learning-from-domesticated-foxes.html</a>. The discussion in this post wasn't about use of the foxes for science, but whether it's a good idea to keep them as pets (which is a separate enterprise, for the most part).<br /><br />If you post here again, it would be lovely if you could moderate your tone a little, though. It's totally fine to disagree with me, but it's nice to present your disagreements in a constructive and polite way.The Dog Zombiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00242246213147009685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-78976007810256789302011-11-15T16:40:07.039-05:002011-11-15T16:40:07.039-05:00This article is just down right ridiculous. Your s...This article is just down right ridiculous. Your sending the "f*** this whole idea" vibe and the "well this could work" vibe. Pull your head out of your a$$ and realize that this is for the sake of science; So not only are you ignorant to say it's for fun and profit, you are also pathetic for thinking anyone gives a damn about your scrambled up opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-24325917688619408502011-07-08T18:52:38.981-04:002011-07-08T18:52:38.981-04:00FYI foxes are solitary, plus they love you so much...FYI foxes are solitary, plus they love you so much they may not feel bad not seeing another fox. But larger dogs may be a problem if you take them to dog parks. To bad the Russians are underfunded to study their foxes more. =(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-47552828138351537852011-06-28T11:34:33.159-04:002011-06-28T11:34:33.159-04:00Wow, who knew that this post was going to be so co...Wow, who knew that this post was going to be so controversial? I wonder how you guys are all finding it.<br /><br />I think the main place where I differ from the people who have commented is that I have a gut feeling that we should not add to the array of animals we already have available to us as pets. I am engaging in some introspection to try to figure out why I feel that way -- since I definitely don't think it is wrong to have pets in general, so long as you take good care of them. Maybe I'll have a post about the ethics of exotic pets and domesticating new species at some point.<br /><br />I did want to address one statement from this most recent commenter, who said that the foxes "are not laboratory animals. They have not been tested in any way other than to see their behaviors towards humans." Actually, there is ongoing research on them to discover thing about how their chemistry works and what actually makes them act the way they do. It's very interesting stuff and I have been meaning to blog about it! But yes, they are definitely kept as a research population, and they are sacrificed just as other research animals are, to better see changes in their brains and things like that. I'm not going to get ito the ethics of that here, just say that it is indeed what they are currently used for.The Dog Zombiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00242246213147009685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-20829184608580467412011-06-28T02:48:49.296-04:002011-06-28T02:48:49.296-04:00I only see a few things I do not agree with in thi...I only see a few things I do not agree with in this post. Everything else is fine by me.<br /><br />Regular veterinarians would not know much about foxes but there are many farm veterinarians who would be able to care for them and these vets not uncommon in most places in the US.<br /><br />I don't see how it would be difficult to feed a fox either. They require some form of meat, vegetables, and other vitamins. Canned dog food would even do because it contains all of that. Their coats are good indicators as to whether or not they are getting the right nutrition. Most pets seem livelier when they are fed right and have good environments too. Foxes would be the same way.<br /><br />Also, foxes are not as social as dogs are. I know someone already pointed this out so I will not repeat it in detail.<br /><br />No one needs to play with a fox to get them to exercise. They do that enough by themselves, whether indoors or outdoors. They are not like like dogs in this sense.<br /><br />And I don't know if you intended to use the term laboratory animal in the same way as a lab rat, but that's the tone I got from that. They are not laboratory animals. They have not been tested in any way other than to see their behaviors towards humans. (I'm not sure if there is any other research facility like the one in Russia that actually studies specifically foxes, but that's what I am referring to right now.) If anything, call them research animals.<br /><br />As for the ethics of it, Only people who are responsible and devoted enough for exotic pets Should care for them. Most of the time that is true but there will always be someone who will get one for the sake of having one. I am alright with people owning foxes. They already have lived alongside humans, not exactly as pets but neighbors to human towns and cities, for so long that they are not as afraid of us as other wild animals. Research is even trying to prove that they have the right genes to be able to become domesticated. Whether or not that is true about all animals with that gene can become domesticated is up for debate but foxes can be domesticated. And domesticated animals can be good pets.<br /><br />No matter how long debates go over the ethics of it, people can't entirely be stopped from doing it anyways. That's why we have all of our domesticated species now. The same will go for finding out about creatures like foxes. We will find out, by whatever means, how their bodies function and what is best for them in nutrition, physical exercise, curing their diseases, and social interactions. If we don't try to find out, we will never know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-30227375187294098852011-02-24T17:00:55.099-05:002011-02-24T17:00:55.099-05:00I don’t see an ethical issue with owning or having...I don’t see an ethical issue with owning or having a domestic fox as a pet for the sake of it being a fox or that we don’t have vast tracks of knowledge about them as domesticated animals. I do see a problem with anyone getting any pet without carefully considering it and taking the time to learn as much as they can about it. We own weimaraners, and even though they are dogs and have been domesticated for a long time they would be a very poor choice of pet for most people because of their energy level. They will happily eat your house and knock over your children if they don’t get to run a whole lot (heck if you don’t really socialize them they will probably bite your neighbor too).<br /><br />I don’t think people should be making pets out of wild animals, if you are a rehabilitator or a sanctuary than okay you know how to care for them in an appropriate way, but nobody needs a tiger in their kitchen just because it’s cute. But these are no longer wild, and I hope anyone who would obtain one would understand this and not think it’s ok to just set it free when they get sick of it (I know we are talking about people and they are crappy and do stuff like this all the time, but at $6000 I HOPE people would resist the urge).These foxes are cute and if it didn’t cost a small fortune to obtain one I may consider it. I would take the time to research my decision just as we did for our dogs. The greater ethical issue is not owning a recently domesticated animal, but rather taking the time to make an educated decision about pets. <br /><br />From what I read about this research center and their distributer they tend to not want to sell to the US because they see us as tending to be irresponsible with our pets… go figure… At least they will only sell them already neutered preventing that idiot want to be breeder from making a fox mill in his backyard… As it is I am a-ok with this being an expensive and controlled operation at the moment, I just wish more people could be responsible with their animals, but as long as we are imperfect then I say... Let them be expensive, and let them be already fixed!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5134993821545562205.post-39851386489791173062011-02-20T10:44:29.820-05:002011-02-20T10:44:29.820-05:00Anonymous: a thoughtful answer, thank you. Honestl...Anonymous: a thoughtful answer, thank you. Honestly, I would probably personally be OK with someone adopting a fox who approached the project as carefully as you seem like you would.<br /><br />About guinea pigs and vets: I suspect that you are thinking about general practitioners, who aren't generally highly trained to care for guinea pigs. Your boyfriend's little sister may not live in an area with an exotics practitioner (they aren't all that common), but if she did, she would probably find that they know a great deal about treating guinea pigs.The Dog Zombiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00242246213147009685noreply@blogger.com